illusionbreaker

The simplest explanation for Imagine Breaker is that it's an ability that negates anything supernatural. Because of the nature of this ability and how it interacts with the supernatural, I've created this permission post for its more troublesome traits.

Subconscious Fear: Imagine Breaker is capable of inflicting fear upon nearby supernatural beings. It manifests as a gut instinct that will warn you to keep your distance and is similar to the kind of feeling you'll probably get when standing at the very edge of a cliff. This seems to primarily effect beings who either don't have a flesh and blood body of their own (Ex: Energy Being. Anything possessing a body that isn't theirs.) or is being kept alive by something decisively supernatural.

Death: Imagine Breaker possesses the potential to kill and/or destroy supernatural beings upon touch. If you want your character to be affected, but don't want the full lethal consequences, we can think up of a more appropriate affect that fits your character better.

Destruction of Magical Items: Exactly what the title says. I typically limit this to only temporary nullification of the item's effect unless you're fine with allowing the full consequences of having said item destroyed.

Please feel free to ask any additional questions or concerns you have about Imagine Breaker.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

illusionbreaker

I think, if I have been reading your examples and some wiki notes, the fundamental nature of magic in FFXIV canon and magic??/esper energy is very different.

I'm not sure with how that parses in the canon Touma's from but I was reading a lot of words like 'personal reality' and illusions and such so it did seem fundamentally different.

Alright, I'll start with trying to give a coherent, short explanation on Magic and Espers. This stuff can get pretty complicated so I'm only going to go over the stuff I think is relevant.

Espers are, to simplify, limited reality warpers. Their powers are mostly based on quantum mechanics. A Personal Reality is created by distorting how a person perceives the world which in turn forces them to make observations outside of the norm. This allows them to replace reality with one created from their delusions. Personal Reality is the source of all esper powers.

'Esper energy' would be AIM Diffusion Field. AIM stands for An Involuntary Movement and it's used to refer to the invisible energy field produced by all Espers.

The Imaginary Number District mentioned in my first post is a realm that exists in the same location as Academy City and was formed by the AIM Diffusion Fields of all the Espers that reside in the city. Think of it as an alternate reality layered on top of the world that can't be normally perceived or interacted with.

Magic is fueled by Mana (Note: Some of the translations call it Magic Power.). Mana is a form of energy that exists in all forms of life and is created by refining one's Life Force. A person's Life Force is their soul, but the exact definition of what a soul is in his canon is not defined.

“Magic is just as much of a collection of specialized skills and knowledge as science is. The supernatural setting takes time and effort. It would be more efficient for you to refine the skills you have than to spend over ten years preparing something that would send you to a bloody grave the first time you used it.”

“Then why are you giving us this long-ass lecture?”

“Because ‘they’ are baring their fangs using that setting,” said Birdway in response to Accelerator’s question. “Even if you can’t use it, it’s still good to know the rules behind it if you are going to be creating a countermeasure. Or do you just plan on continuing to fumble around against a mysterious enemy that uses some unknown set of laws?”

“What’s the actual process used?” asked Accelerator in a low voice.

In the final stages of the war in Russia, he had brought about a similar-seeming phenomenon by using the information from some mysterious parchments as the base and switching out some of the secondary operations.

But that voice and that glare that could make even the darkness of that city tremble had no effect on that girl.

“That of course changes based on the denomination and the school of thought.” Birdway shooed away the troublesome-seeming calico cat that had jumped up on the table. “Basically, it all starts by refining one’s life force into magic power. Even in the magic side, there are a flood of different theories as to the definition of the soul, so this part is rather difficult to explain… If you think of the energy flowing through the human body as crude oil, then it is necessary to refine it into gasoline before using magic.”

Power of the World is the Mana that the Earth itself produces. Imagine Breaker does work on it, but the effect is pretty minimal. One character describes the effect like this:

"To talk about the leylines... Oh, I know. I'll use the example of a snowplow you used. When Imagine Breaker scrapes away the accumulated snow, more snow quickly accumulates, preventing anyone from seeing the path. It would be more accurate to say that a cycle like that has been set up from the beginning than to say that it has to do with how much the planet can replenish the power."

Basically, it replenishes itself faster than Imagine Breaker can destroy and this set up is natural. Something I want to note about Imagine Breaker is that its been around far, far longer than Touma himself.

Aether is literally the lifeforce/lifebood of pretty much anything. It's sometimes treated as more the fundamental energy that comprises the soul (along with will) but also the building blocks of life and natural phenomenon (aether heavily aspected toward fire element and being pulled to the Dark pole in abundance was a sign of a volcanic eruption being imminent, for instance). While it is something to fuel magic creation, it is not, in itself, literally 'magic'. If it was, Touma could literally kill everyone from the FFXIV canon, as no aether = dead/lifeless.

So, while the comparison isn't one to one, Mana and Aether do have similar roles. There are a few main differences between the two. Mana is created from Lifeforce/soul while Aether (if I'm understanding correctly) is something that is part of the soul. They both are connected to happenings and meta in their respective canons, but do so in different ways. To use your volcanic eruption example, in his world it's possible an event like this would come about as an unintended side effect of using Magic and creating Sparks from the colliding of Phases. A Phase is a layer that covers reality itself, acting as a filter that alters how reality is perceived and the laws of the world. Each Phase has a different type of Mana contained within them and what type they have depends on what religion its based off (Ex: Heaven would have Telesma). Sparks created by these collisions have widespread influence on the world and its people, affecting both fortune and misfortune.

Moving away from Sparks and Phases, Mana (Magic Power) can be negated by Imagine Breaker.

“I would call it inefficient,” said Anna. “Using magic with that body requires circulating his lifeforce throughout the body and refining it into magic power, right? You will always have a large chunk of that precious magic power negated before you can use it.”

“True enough. This boy’s right hand is powerful indeed and it is not something I can fully control even with his permission.”

St. Germain could not use Imagine Breaker.

Kamijou Touma could not use diamond magic.

No matter how hard they tried, they had to support each other as they fought.

So their best bet was to switch back and forth between those two sides based on what was currently needed to fight the conflagration before them. Even if something was deadly to one of them, the other might be able to break through it. They switched back and forth like they were moving a tennis racket from one side to the other during a high-speed match. It sounded convenient, but their opponent was Anna Sprengel. One wrong decision and the ball of survival would slip past them and they would lose the game.

“But even if the Sephirah and the channels between them correspond to parts of the human body, you never hear of someone who can no longer use magic after being injured or falling ill,” said St. Germain. “Magic is a means of making up for what we lack and making our dreams come true, so a lot of students enter the world of magic after just such an injury or illness.”

“Are you saying you can separate out his right hand or divert around it?” asked Anna.

St. Germain’s words contained fear and respect, but he still bared his fangs.

“I was always a lowly magician who refused to be defined solely by the two characters of RC. I instead worked to make my mark on high society under the individual name of St. Germain. There is a considerable loss in power from diverting the flow around that hand, but I am accustomed to wasted effort and this is not enough for my diamond spells to fail. The acute version of me you created appears to be even more powerful than you thought.”

To give this quote a bit more context, Touma has a sentient colony of microbes using his body to cast Magic. In order to use the Mana refined from Touma, he needed to make sure the flow of Mana doesn't pass through Imagine Breaker otherwise it will get negated.

Still with me? Great! So, with all that said, I do believe Imagine Breaker would react to Aether. As to whether Touma can kill everyone in FFXIV canon by shaking their hand, this is more of a maybe. As long as the regeneration speed outpaces the amount Imagine Breaker can destroy, it won't kill them.

Elidibus's natural form outside a vessel (read: body) is that of an aetherial being. Inherently a soul possessed of a strong enough Will to keep itself from dispersing back into the aether of the world on death. (This is different in his canon to an undead or ghost, though would probably be roughly MOST concepts of a spirit). To be somewhat more precise he is one of three surviving 'whole' souls of an ancient race of mankind that would be pretty much God-level. Most of their race was sundered into fragments which then became the mortal races. The event that sundered these souls was astronomically intense, which is one of the reasons I'm trying to gauge the crossover here.

Are you asking for a power feat for Imagine Breaker? If you are, here you go!

Kamijou Touma and Othinus both moved at once.

It ended after one step.

A whirl of destruction burst out.

Time stopped.

Space was compressed.

The standard concepts of time and space no longer had any meaning.

The lance of the head Norse god was named Gungnir. Its handle was made from the wood of an ash tree, the same as the world tree, its sharp tip was made from gold, and it had tremendous power due to the runes personally carved into the Dvergr-made base by the head god.

It had a few different characteristics.

1. The lance was made to be thrown.

2. The lance would always hit its target once thrown.

3. The lance could not be shot down or destroyed mid-flight.

4. The lance would always return to its owner’s hands after piercing the target.

Returning to its owner seemed to be a relatively important ability for projectiles. For example, Cú Chulainn from Celtic mythology’s spear did not possess that ability and he was ultimately killed when his own spear was thrown back at him. Lightning God Thor’s Mjölnir in Norse mythology and Light God Lugh’s Fragarach in Celtic mythology were both said to have this ability.

It was possible those weapons’ characteristics were meant to make them “wonderful weapons only the special gods were allowed to use and that no human could ever make”.

And even with all of those characteristics, the lance of the head Norse god had yet another characteristic that put it a clear step above the weapons’ of the other gods.

5. That lance would destroy the symbols of human power.

That came from when Gungnir had broken the legendary sword wielded by the father of Sigurd the hero. When necessary, the head Norse god would take power from humans, implying it was their time to die, and add their soul to the army of the gods.

A human could not defeat a god.

The convenience of the god had priority over everything in the human’s world and the workings of the world would act accordingly.

No other characteristic felt more strongly like the power of a god.

Rather than showing simple destructive power by blowing away a mountain or vaporizing the sea, it bluntly indicated the precedence of the god.

In other words, the instant that lance left Othinus’s hands, the world would be blown to pieces.

Time returned to normal.

Kamijou once more felt space spread out around him.

As the lance was fired with tremendous force, the “happy world” was smashed to pieces as if space itself was being torn apart. As a fragment of the world approached with the force of a raging wave, it took on the shape of a giant lance. The walls of all the phases were crushed, transformed into a swirl of deadly weapons resembling sharp shards of glass, and approached their pitiful target as if to swallow him whole.

Everything was ripped up.

The black labyrinth, which had used up all of its possibilities, showed itself.

Magic God Othinus had the ability to create, so she was technically not destroying anything. This may have been a change brought about by adding a new phase into the world. Nevertheless, it was blatantly obvious what the scene before Kamijou’s eyes would produce. It was the same as referring to the utter destruction of a luxurious palace as “creating a pile of rubble”. This was undeniably a torrent of destruction.

The convenience of the world of man meant nothing.

The destruction carried out by the god took precedence.

Its greatest effect was causing any resisting human who saw it to give up.

It provided such an overwhelming feeling of resignation that even an experienced hero would fall to his knees and end his challenge.

Most likely, no one could have escaped that lance when attacked head on. No matter what form of defense or evasion they attempted, they would have had no hope of surviving. That attack had been given the parameter of “no human can oppose it”. Unless one left the territory of man, one would be smashed to pieces. Not even Fiamma of the Right or Ollerus could have done anything when faced with it.

There was no way a normal high school boy could overcome it.

Even with a special power in his right hand, he would be smashed to pieces before he could use it.

However…

(Weren’t you listening, Othinus?)

Kamijou Touma thought to himself as he silently stared at the tip of the giant lance created by sacrificing an entire world.

(I’m not a special person, I might normally lose to a professional magician, and I’m nothing more than a high school student.)

In the instant of firing the lance, Othinus’s face twisted slightly.

She must have seen the look on the boy’s face.

Yes.

Kamijou Touma was smiling ever so slightly.

“But right now, I can overcome you!!!!”

The action he took was simple.

He tightly clenched his right fist and used his entire body weight to thrust it forward.

No one would have been able to keep up with its overwhelming speed. Their bodies would have been smashed to pieces before they could even hope to follow the tip of the lance with their eyes.

But the experience he had built up accurately guided his movements.

He had achieved a surefire attack that would work on Magic God Othinus and no one else.

Kamijou Touma’s right fist was sucked in toward the one point that no one else would have been able to reach.

His fist reached the sharp tip of Gungnir.

In that instant, all sound vanished from the world.

The kind world vanished and everything was dyed in black.

When Kamijou Touma’s right fist struck it, the lance veered sharply upward.

When Othinus held up her hand, the lance rotated complexly and began to fly back to her hand through the black sky.

But it never completed the action.

The lance broke apart in midair and completely disintegrated before returning to Othinus like a boomerang.

Any questions? Did I miss something? BTW, I've almost hit the character limit.

Edit: I'll respond to the other posts once this is hashed out.

Edited Date: 2021-08-29 06:11 pm (UTC)

From:

wewillwewill

Espers are, to simplify, limited reality warpers. Their powers are mostly based on quantum mechanics. A Personal Reality is created by distorting how a person perceives the world which in turn forces them to make observations outside of the norm. This allows them to replace reality with one created from their delusions. Personal Reality is the source of all esper powers.

'Esper energy' would be AIM Diffusion Field. AIM stands for An Involuntary Movement and it's used to refer to the invisible energy field produced by all Espers.

This part is a little bit like what exposure to lots of ambient aether can do (more or less it can impact the reality of an area or those exposed to the area for too long). While I doubt this would become relevant, I'm fairly sure the AIM Difussion Field if Touma has one, would probably provide protection against the affects of tempering/enthrallment (the act of a powerful Primal/summon's aether effectively mutating those exposed to it without any protections).

The Imaginary Number District mentioned in my first post is a realm that exists in the same location as Academy City and was formed by the AIM Diffusion Fields of all the Espers that reside in the city. Think of it as an alternate reality layered on top of the world that can't be normally perceived or interacted with.

I see! Probably not something that exists on the train then? I mean that sounds like it needs a lot of Espers from Touma's world to create one, much less a stable one. XD But though irrelevant, probably something Elidibus could perceive so if it ever does become relevant he'd totally be interested in the phenomenon.

Magic is fueled by Mana (Note: Some of the translations call it Magic Power.). Mana is a form of energy that exists in all forms of life and is created by refining one's Life Force. A person's Life Force is their soul, but the exact definition of what a soul is in his canon is not defined.

Power of the World is the Mana that the Earth itself produces. Imagine Breaker does work on it, but the effect is pretty minimal. One character describes the effect like this:

In FFXIV Canon, aether is more like one's life force. Frankly the life force of everything. It flows in a cycle between the aetherial and the physical plane. Since people of the canon are basically manipulating aether directly to craft spells, I think it is more like they're skipping the refinement to mana step and just casting spells with their life-force directly, to put it in the perspective of Touma's canon perspective.

Interestingly, I'm willing to bet that Touma could fuck up magitek from the FFXIV canon pretty well as that is sort of a science and technology but much of it is refined from aether to produce energy sorces and the like. (There is a somewhat unstable fuel source called ceruleum that is kind of aether in a liquid form that can be refined for said fuel).

I also think experiencing FFXIV canon spellcasting would be akin to watching someone shave their lifeforce to cast a spell. (don't worry they do it all the time, it comes back. it's fiiine). It might be tricky for Touma to handle but I do suspect that Imagine Breaker and a handy MC character like him could probably figure something out. If not fully nullify he could certainly reduce the effect/damage. Or counter a spell-in-effect.

To give this quote a bit more context, Touma has a sentient colony of microbes using his body to cast Magic. In order to use the Mana refined from Touma, he needed to make sure the flow of Mana doesn't pass through Imagine Breaker otherwise it will get negated.

Still with me? Great! So, with all that said, I do believe Imagine Breaker would react to Aether. As to whether Touma can kill everyone in FFXIV canon by shaking their hand, this is more of a maybe. As long as the regeneration speed outpaces the amount Imagine Breaker can destroy, it won't kill them.

Totally with you! Knowing a little bit more about the nature of things has really helped. That being said, aether itself is not mana. If it were, Touma wouldn't be able to exist because his aether/lifeforce would be eaten by imagine breaker constantly. But I do remember you gave an example where he may well have overpowered Imagine Breaker running out of control. So fortunately, no genocide of the people of FFXIV! Imagine Breaker and Touma would probably have visible aether but be separate readings (Imagine Breaker might be an elemental force, one that sounds very Light (Static/passive, NOT holy) in nature.

Would it insta-destroy Elidibus? No. He's a massive hunk of lifeforce/soul, rather than magic. At least, not unless he was really really weakened (by a party of eight people with really good gear, haha), BUT it can be a formidable weapon in a conflict. Not that I'm saying there would be! But Imagine Breaker can probably be a huge shield for a lot of the damage your typical attacks from an FFXIV character would wield. Sure you deal with the weapon itself, but a lot of the extra oomph coming from aether manipulation is definitely going to be impacted.

You are definitely a Man of Interest, Touma. +_+ Elidibus will be observing you.

Please let me know if this doesn't seem to jive. I can try to provide references or such if they are needed. I don't even know if most of this is even going to valid in future CR, but I do like the thought experiment and it really does help me have a better grasp on your canon as well.

From:

illusionbreaker

This part is a little bit like what exposure to lots of ambient aether can do (more or less it can impact the reality of an area or those exposed to the area for too long). While I doubt this would become relevant, I'm fairly sure the AIM Difussion Field if Touma has one, would probably provide protection against the affects of tempering/enthrallment (the act of a powerful Primal/summon's aether effectively mutating those exposed to it without any protections).

Touma should have one, but Imagine Breaker negates it along with whatever Esper power he may or may not have.

I see! Probably not something that exists on the train then? I mean that sounds like it needs a lot of Espers from Touma's world to create one, much less a stable one. XD But though irrelevant, probably something Elidibus could perceive so if it ever does become relevant he'd totally be interested in the phenomenon.

Pretty much. I have no idea how many Espers you would need, but it's certainly more than one.

In FFXIV Canon, aether is more like one's life force. Frankly the life force of everything. It flows in a cycle between the aetherial and the physical plane. Since people of the canon are basically manipulating aether directly to craft spells, I think it is more like they're skipping the refinement to mana step and just casting spells with their life-force directly, to put it in the perspective of Touma's canon perspective.

I also think experiencing FFXIV canon spellcasting would be akin to watching someone shave their lifeforce to cast a spell. (don't worry they do it all the time, it comes back. it's fiiine).

That's a pretty good way to put it. Yeah, a magician from Touma's canon would think the people of FFXIV are insane for doing it that way.

Interestingly, I'm willing to bet that Touma could fuck up magitek from the FFXIV canon pretty well as that is sort of a science and technology but much of it is refined from aether to produce energy sorces and the like. (There is a somewhat unstable fuel source called ceruleum that is kind of aether in a liquid form that can be refined for said fuel).

It's funny you mention this. Someone in his canon did create magitek. Or at least, a weird biotech version of it. The Elements in his canon are artificial life forms created using a hybrid of science and magic. Here's a picture of one.

But I do remember you gave an example where he may well have overpowered Imagine Breaker running out of control.

Wait, I did? Umm, could you do me a favor and show me? Cause I don't know what you're talking about.

Would it insta-destroy Elidibus? No. He's a massive hunk of lifeforce/soul, rather than magic. At least, not unless he was really really weakened (by a party of eight people with really good gear, haha), BUT it can be a formidable weapon in a conflict. Not that I'm saying there would be! But Imagine Breaker can probably be a huge shield for a lot of the damage your typical attacks from an FFXIV character would wield. Sure you deal with the weapon itself, but a lot of the extra oomph coming from aether manipulation is definitely going to be impacted.

So, what you're saying is Touma can slap Elidibus as much as he wants without having to worry about accidently deleting him. Got it!

Imagine Breaker and Touma would probably have visible aether but be separate readings (Imagine Breaker might be an elemental force, one that sounds very Light (Static/passive, NOT holy) in nature.

Possibly. To be honest, I have no idea. There's a lot more to Imagine Breaker than it being a simple power that negates the supernatural. The exact nature of what it is hasn't been completely reveled in the novels. The most current acceptable answer in the Raildex fandom is that its a reference point to return the world to normal after it has been twisted by magicians, but I personally believe this explanation leaves out quite a bit of other details. Such details like why it works on Esper powers, its implied sentience, its ability to instill the concept of 'Death', and its connection to the dragons hanging out inside Touma. There's also the fact it's a theory from a character who doesn't have the full details on how it works and Touma himself doubts if that's truly what its origin is.

He held out Imagine Breaker.

He thought of its original meaning.

“According to Ollerus, Imagine Breaker is an accumulation of the hopes of all magicians. He said it’s a reference point to return the world to normal after it is twisted by their desires. I don’t know if that’s its true origin, but it can be used like that. You could say this is the other card you could play. It represents the original world. Instead of adding on another layer of paint, you can use this like a palette knife to slowly peel away the previous layers.”

Oh and speaking of dragons. Here's a lovely pic of them. Aren't they the cutest?

Please let me know if this doesn't seem to jive. I can try to provide references or such if they are needed. I don't even know if most of this is even going to valid in future CR, but I do like the thought experiment and it really does help me have a better grasp on your canon as well.

I enjoy this kind of thought experiment stuff too. And thanks for taking the time to explain FFXIV canon stuff to me.

From:

wewillwewill

Touma should have one, but Imagine Breaker negates it along with whatever Esper power he may or may not have.

Oh that makes sense. Still, Imagine Breaker would probably have some capability to negate it on its own. So this resistance probably stands. Probably. I mean, I wouldn't debate it much further. Which is good. Sometimes these influences can give you tentacles and fish faces.

That's a pretty good way to put it. Yeah, a magician from Touma's canon would think the people of FFXIV are insane for doing it that way.

Look, it's fiiine. Seriously. Why bother with the extra step!

It's funny you mention this. Someone in his canon did create magitek. Or at least, a weird biotech version of it. The Elements in his canon are artificial life forms created using a hybrid of science and magic. Here's a picture of one.

It is very magically biological! Magitek in FFXIV tends to be much more mechanical in nature. Though there are lots of forms it takes, this is an iconic magitek armor.

Wait, I did? Umm, could you do me a favor and show me? Cause I don't know what you're talking about.

Actually you did not. This was something I harvested out of some of the independent looking up I did! It is here under the 'Removal from the body' topic.

But looking it up on my own was confusing so I appreciate your help in sorting it out into sensible words.

So, what you're saying is Touma can slap Elidibus as much as he wants without having to worry about accidentally deleting him. Got it!

What is it with you guys and trying to punch him out of his vessel? :( First Danny Fenton, now Touma! But yes, he should be a-okay even if he's not using his meat suit.

Possibly. To be honest, I have no idea. There's a lot more to Imagine Breaker than it being a simple power that negates the supernatural. The exact nature of what it is hasn't been completely reveled in the novels. The most current acceptable answer in the Raildex fandom is that its a reference point to return the world to normal after it has been twisted by magicians, but I personally believe this explanation leaves out quite a bit of other details. Such details like why it works on Esper powers, its implied sentience, its ability to instill the concept of 'Death', and its connection to the dragons hanging out inside Touma. There's also the fact it's a theory from a character who doesn't have the full details on how it works and Touma himself doubts if that's truly what its origin is.

Oh and speaking of dragons. Here's a lovely pic of them. Aren't they the cutest?

Haha totally tell me if they ever reveal it. Because the As Standing explanation has an interesting sort-of parallel in FFXIV canon.

Well except the dragons. Which are, indeed, freakin' adorable. Do tell me more about these dragons sometime. Are they like... alien invaders like they are to FFXIV canon? (no seriously, dragons are aliens)